Howwould you rate former President Goodluck Jonathan’s performance in office?
This should be the subject of many books. I think too many of us have gotten carried away by the political propaganda and wars by both the All Progressives Congress and the Peoples Democratic Party, in which both Jonathan and (President Muhammadu) Buhari were subjected to different characterisations. But we must get past all that. Jonathan’s presidency was not perfect and there will never be one. We all believe that he could have done a lot of things differently, but I believe he did his best. It was, in our eyes, far from what we expected. But we must move away from the narratives of propaganda to the realities now. History will judge Jonathan and I worry that we are allowing talks about probes and so on to becloud our judgment of what he did right. If we cannot identity the good things, how can we identify the bad things?
Former President Jonathan did not have the rough muscles you need to govern a country like Nigeria. His work to give us a credible electoral machine, his ability to tame his ambition; all these are things we cannot ignore. The mismanagement of our resources is a real challenge, which we must face and the government must take up very seriously. People have the mistaken notion that some of us are against the probe or that we are shielding Jonathan. What have I got to gain by shielding Jonathan, now that he is not in power? President Buhari’s concern should be with the choir of hypocrites and cheer leaders who are clamouring around him now. If Jonathan is guilty of theft of state funds, that should be dealt with but it should not distract us from whatever else he may have done well. He was a good man and, sadly, if bad (or good) things happened under his watch, we must let everyone take his or her own share of the blame or praise.
In specific terms, what do you think Jonathan’s administration will be remembered for?
God alone knows, but he will be remembered as a great Nigerian statesman who put God and nation first. And that is indelible mark of honour which money cannot buy. It is a mark of character and honour.
If you think those around President Buhari are hypocrites, are you saying they are also corrupt and should be probed too?
I did not imply that those around him are hypocrites, but I imply that there are hypocrites all over and they would have been with Jonathan if he had remained (in office). They would have been castigating him as a religious bigot and so on. The hypocrite knows what is right but just pretends. All the talk about transparency and fighting corruption, President Buhari knows that he has not raised an army of the righteous yet and this is why he must be careful. Age, experience, certificates, old networks, etc. have nothing to do with it. Honour is a scarce commodity in Nigeria.
My main worry is that this probe thing is a distraction because it has not been spelt out yet. In any case, the nation cannot stop till probes have been concluded. In my view, the President showed his hand too early. Everyone knows what the General (Buhari) stands for and that is precisely why he was elected. It is much like the Pope saying now that I have been elected, I will preach the gospel. That is precisely why he is there. So, my worry is that the probe talk will soon become the theme song of those like the Roman lynch mobs on the streets who just want blood. And (it is) the blood of other people, not those of their fathers, uncles, aunties or townsmen and women. I think the President could have developed a template for doing this and simply roll it out when he is ready. Now, my worry is that it will become a distraction and sooner than later, ethnic, religious and regional chauvinists will get in the way. After all, he tried and jailed many people for 50, 80, 90 and 100 years. Some of them have finished their jail terms and they are with him in the APC or in the PDP now. So, this is the conundrum we are in.
What then is your candid advice for President Buhari on probing corrupt activities by the last administration?
He already has the experience but as he has admitted, he is wearing a new garb of a democrat. He knows that these probes will not be easy, especially given that from our experience, the more you steal the more you can find enough national and international lawyers to frustrate things. Have we not been waiting for almost 20 years now for the late (Gen. Sani) Abacha’s loot? It is a long road to travel and I believe that the President must never allow the bad to become the enemy of the good. We all must defeat the ogre of corruption which has consumed our past, destroyed our present and threatens our future. But this dragon will not be slain with just one arrow. President Buhari can lay the foundation, but winning the war requires more than him. Fighting corruption requires scientific skills; an understanding of the causative factors, that is all I am saying. We all will be the beneficiaries but it will take time to wean those who have been brought up in the milk of corruption such as we all are now. I do not like the words ‘fighting corruption’ myself. I think the corruption is a symptom of our semi-primitive state of existence. Only development can defeat corruption, not threats, moral exhortations or lachrymal denunciations.
Should President Buhari just forget about the stolen monies kept in places and move on?
How can he or anyone forget? But first, where are the places where the monies are? Identifying the location is the first step. The problem is, these monies are stolen and they are not necessarily lost. The challenge is to find those who will help us find them. But finding them is just the beginning of the problem. The real problem is getting the loot back because it — the loot — is sustaining banks, corporations, businesses, industries and careers abroad or in the safe havens and these people (countries) will fight back with everything. You think these banks will just wire this loots to you just like that? They have more lawyers, better lawyers than our entire country. It is almost 20 years now and we still have not seen the Abacha loot. All we hear are stories, since (former President Olusegun) Obasanjo’s time. I am just pointing out difficulties and not discouraging anyone; but there are choices to make. The President has only four years; he has to decide on how he will conserve his energies and which battles to fight, when and how. Our people love drama, but theatre has only a passing use for us now. He does not have a Supreme Military Council of Generals to throw people into jail. He has a National Assembly to deal with and there are still lingering problems with that august body. The President needs help in clearing the debris and banana peels ahead.
Should monies only be recovered and the looters be left unpunished?
I was with the Oputa Panel and I have also studied some part of the justice system as it concerns issues of human rights, reconciliation and justice. We can put all the people we want in jails but what will that do? We can even kill them, but then, what next? The African mind is not so much tuned to punitive justice but we tend to focus more on integrative and restorative justice. The theft has denied us development. So, Buhari can and should learn from ex-President Obasanjo who got back so much of the loots after he came in without any noise. I recall him saying that even pastors helped to bring back loots from repentant parishioners. I believe the President, using the intelligence resources available, should consider surprise as the most vital tool in this fight. My worry has not been about not probing as some of my critics falsely think. I have been saying ‘think, plan and execute.’ If you make so much noise, vital evidence, data and files will be destroyed by collaborators in the civil service or the relevant offices. The President has not named his team in this battle yet and he needs to court whistleblowers and wean them from the looters who may still have control over them. We must all know that loyalties have not changed yet.
Many Nigerians have expressed their displeasure with your statement on a live breakfast television programme recently, where you said, if the incumbent president probes the former president, it could be the incumbent’s turn tomorrow.
I consider myself a public intellectual. My job is to stir the hornet’s nest, generating new ideas and pointing the way forward. I am quite lucky that I have the chance to air my views. You sound as if I was against the former President being probed. My point is that no one knows what will happen tomorrow and a routine procedure like a probe should not be made to sound like a mission of vengeance. What is more, can you honestly tell me what will happen tomorrow? Did Obasanjo know he would end up in prison? Was Gen. Buhari not detained himself? Some of us are concerned with the future and we do some reflections. I do not just talk, I try to think and I make mistakes; my views are not gospel and people are free and welcome to nourish me with new ideas. But it is sad when people turn ignorance and prejudice into marketable commodities.
I believe the Office of the President is a ‘semi-sacred’ office and we must respect it, even if we mistakenly put a scoundrel there. We can respect the office and still punish the occupant if he misbehaves. And Americans did some of this with, say, President (Richard) Nixon and even the way they handled (Bill) Clinton. There is the tendency to divide us into those who support presidents and those who do not. I was labelled a PDP and APC supporter; some of those looking for food said I was against Jonathan and so on. I actually feel vindicated when I hear people accuse me of one thing today and another tomorrow.
Nigerians must have heroes and heroines; people whose names will inspire some awe, not because they are saints but because of what they have done. Even if Jonathan goes to prison, the world will not forget that he saved our country from doom. I am saddened that some food-is-ready, fly-by-night supporters of Buhari, who are not interested in Nigeria but angling for positions, want to place the exigencies of the moment ahead of the nation. Their fanaticism endangers and blurs the path for both the President and country.
Nigeria has received overwhelming international acceptance under President Buhari. Why do you think this is so?
God knows. But again, this is the reason why I sound so impatient. I am not stampeding the President as some people think. What I am saying is that this goodwill is like snow; like ice, it could melt. The international community has a short attention span and we Nigerians have far more enemies than we understand. It is a pity if we think that everyone is happy with how the elections went.
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